Re: Extra Blacktown platform (was: St Leonards, NSW)

["Dave Proctor" <daproc@sd5.mailbank.com>]

Garry Hoddinett <hoddos@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
7urhcq$1m70$1@otis.netspace.net.au">news:7urhcq$1m70$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>
> > Dave Proctor  writes in message .
> > You cannot compare the two - they have totally different service
> > characteristics. Hornsby has car sheds just to the
> > north - a train can sit there until time, come into the platform, open
> >doors, pour people on, close doors and go.
>
> And they could have built sidings to hold terminating services at
Blacktown
> rather than the grater expense of a new paltform (with lift) and an extra
up
> track stretching for a few liometres towards Seven Hills.

So land resumptions, levelling, and building tracks, along with the
inevitable track and signalling work, would be cheaper than putting a
platform on an already existing track?

Ok - I see you went to the John Cain/Joan Kirner School of Economics.

> > There are also totally different operational characteristics. Hornsby
> > is a division of tracks in the up direction. Blacktown, on the other
> > hand, is a merger of lines in the up direction. Granted, the opposite
> > applies in the evening peak, where Hornsby becomes a merger in
>  > the dominant flow direction, and Blacktown becomes a junction.
>
> So what?  they still run similar numbers of trains through both stations
but
> the facilites are unequal.

Once again you miss the point. Trains coming into a junction have to wait
for a train to clear the section ahead. Trains going out of a junction do
not.

> > there are other things you failed to mention. Blacktown has a much
> > larger number of through services. Hornsby has a much larger
> > number of services starting and terminating at there.
>
> Yes and most stations that have terminating services tend to require
> additional platforms to handle the longer times to turn a train around at
or
> for them to wait for a clear path to the depot or sidings.  Some trains
have
> to cross the paths of other trains to get to sidings and it is not a
simple
> matter of pressing the buzzer and off they go as you infer.  Hornsby
doesn't
> have the luxury of a fly over like Blacktown.
>
> Blacktown has an extensive bus/rail
> > interchange, Hornsby has none.
>
> Sorry! Hornsby does have a bus/rail interchange.

It is not extensive - notice I said "extensive" in my original post.

> > You also fail to appreciate that you can not determine the number of
> > platforms required based purely on the number of services. There
> > are other factors to be considered. Station dwell times are a factor as
> well.
>
> Exactly! Terminating services require more time.

Not when they can be shoved up into the yard to turn around, they don't.

>  >Hornsby has a lot of trains that are almost empty when going through >
in
> the morning (due to the fact that they start at Hornsby). When a
> > train is empty it loads quicker. Blacktown, on the other hand, has
> > trains that are fairly full by the time they get there, and this
> > delays .loading (some would say the ferals who live
> > in the area are a bit thick and contribute to the delays, but that is
> > another story). Blacktown also has signifigant numbers travelling to it
> > - so you are faced with a situation where people are trying to get off >
> the train at the same time as people are trying to get on. All of this
> > contributes to dwell times.
>
> Hornsby is a major interchange point with people arriving/ departing on
all
> trains as well.  Hornsby also handles considereably more interurban
services
> with their comparativley narrow doorways and as a result rather lengthly
> stops.

You do not have a large number of people getting off a train at the same
time as you also have a large number of people trying to get on the same
train. Hornsby largely has people getting off trains from the Mental Coast
and onto Shore trains - and vice versa in the evenings.

> > Because of the different service characteristics. It is not the sheer
> > weight of train numbers, it is the characteristics of the service that
> > matter. How about you go to Blacktown one morning, and spend say > 90
> minutes there, and see how well it copes. It copes reasonably . > .well,
but
> it is at the limits of its performance. I have spent 90
> > minutes  at Hornsby in the morning peak, and things flow a lot more >
> smoothly at Hornsby.
>
> Things tend to flow better at Hornsby in the morning but the evening peak
is
> far more unreliable.
>
> > Why are you comparing a "typical off peak type arrangement" with
> > "Hornsby, at its peak"?
>
> I am not comparing Blacktown off peak to Hornsby at is peak I am just
> pointing out that if Hornsby with four paltforms can handle approximately
30
> trains per hour then Blacktown with six platforms should be able to handle
> Olympic Park traffic.
>
> > That is an operational thing and is easily sorted with a few extra
> > station staff to help check terminating trains, and if they were to
> > employ guards with balls (to close the doors and get going, rather
> > than waiting for people running down the stairs to try and catch an
> > already late train).
>
> I am glad that you concede that trains do get delayed entering Hornsby.
As
> you point out train operations are part of the problem but lack of
> facilities is (ie platforms) is the major reason.

Nope - it is operational - the facilities are perfectly adequate to handle
current and projected traffic.

>  > I am not familiar with the layout of Hornsby yard - is it possible to
put
> > a train in a loop somewhere (thus clearing the platform) and when
> > the interurban goes, send the other train out behind it?
>
> It was possible to do as you suggest but the new yard layout makes it more
> difficult than before.  In any case it still involves northbound trains
> "cutting across" the Up and Down mains to get to a loop.  In any case the
> northbound Interurban is often carrying passengers who wish to transfer to
> the delayed train.
>
> > But, using your argument, it is not unusual at Blacktown for a train to
>
> be heldon platform 3 waiting for a late running train from
> > the .Richmond line. This then banks up trains on the Up Main behind >
it.
> So the problem applies at both stations.
>
> It is not just an unusual occurence it is a regular event for trains to
> delayed entering Hornsby.

It is not unusual at Blacktown either.

> Both Blacktown and Hornsby are important stations.  We will have to a
agree
> to disagree on the merits of an additional platform at Blacktown versus
> spending the money elsewhere in the network.  I thank you for a thought
> provocing discussion!  Your points have certainly made me appreciate the
> importance of Blacktown more .  However , not withstanding your somewhat
> pesuasive arguements I still remain unconvinced why a station such as
> Blacktown with a similar number of train services as Hornsby requires 75%
> more platforms.  I would have thought there were other cheaper
alternatives
> that could have improved the efficiency of Blacktown station.

Possibly - operating staff with a bit of backbone would help.

--
DaveProctor
thadocta AT dingoblue.net.au