Re: Extra Blacktown platform (was: St Leonards, NSW)

["Hubert" <hubert@imap4.com>]

Trust me...it's much easier for a train to be delayed at Hornsby in the
mid-afternoon with around 6 high schools around--Asquith Boys' + Girls', Knox,
Abbotsleigh, Normanhurst Boys', Hornsby Girls', Loreto Normanhurst, Pennant
Hills...stupid Y7s just hold on to the doors and the guard has to embarass them by
announcing "student in car X please get away from doors" etc etc.

However, over the past 3 weeks, trains running to Hornsby (via Epping, from
Berowra/Hornsby) and from Hornsby (via Epping, to Hornsby/Lower North Shore) have
been unacceptably late, both in morning and afternoon. What they may need to do is
to perhaps clean up the messy junction at the north so that a single movement will
not be in the way of other trains.




Garry Hoddinett <hoddos@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
7urhcq$1m70$1@otis.netspace.net.au">news:7urhcq$1m70$1@otis.netspace.net.au...

> Dave Proctor  writes in message .
> You cannot compare the two - they have totally different service
> characteristics. Hornsby has car sheds just to the
> north - a train can sit there until time, come into the platform, open
>doors, pour people on, close doors and go.

And they could have built sidings to hold terminating services at Blacktown
rather than the grater expense of a new paltform (with lift) and an extra up
track stretching for a few liometres towards Seven Hills.


> There are also totally different operational characteristics. Hornsby
> is a division of tracks in the up direction. Blacktown, on the other
> hand, is a merger of lines in the up direction. Granted, the opposite
> applies in the evening peak, where Hornsby becomes a merger in
 > the dominant flow direction, and Blacktown becomes a junction.

So what?  they still run similar numbers of trains through both stations but
the facilites are unequal.

> there are other things you failed to mention. Blacktown has a much
> larger number of through services. Hornsby has a much larger
> number of services starting and terminating at there.

Yes and most stations that have terminating services tend to require
additional platforms to handle the longer times to turn a train around at or
for them to wait for a clear path to the depot or sidings.  Some trains have
to cross the paths of other trains to get to sidings and it is not a simple
matter of pressing the buzzer and off they go as you infer.  Hornsby doesn't
have the luxury of a fly over like Blacktown.

Blacktown has an extensive bus/rail
> interchange, Hornsby has none.

Sorry! Hornsby does have a bus/rail interchange.

> You also fail to appreciate that you can not determine the number of
> platforms required based purely on the number of services. There
> are other factors to be considered. Station dwell times are a factor as
well.

Exactly! Terminating services require more time.

 >Hornsby has a lot of trains that are almost empty when going through > in
the morning (due to the fact that they start at Hornsby). When a
> train is empty it loads quicker. Blacktown, on the other hand, has
> trains that are fairly full by the time they get there, and this
> delays .loading (some would say the ferals who live
> in the area are a bit thick and contribute to the delays, but that is
> another story). Blacktown also has signifigant numbers travelling to it
> - so you are faced with a situation where people are trying to get off >
the train at the same time as people are trying to get on. All of this
> contributes to dwell times.

Hornsby is a major interchange point with people arriving/ departing on all
trains as well.  Hornsby also handles considereably more interurban services
with their comparativley narrow doorways and as a result rather lengthly
stops.

> Because of the different service characteristics. It is not the sheer
> weight of train numbers, it is the characteristics of the service that
> matter. How about you go to Blacktown one morning, and spend say > 90
minutes there, and see how well it copes. It copes reasonably . > .well, but
it is at the limits of its performance. I have spent 90
> minutes  at Hornsby in the morning peak, and things flow a lot more >
smoothly at Hornsby.

Things tend to flow better at Hornsby in the morning but the evening peak is
far more unreliable.

> Why are you comparing a "typical off peak type arrangement" with
> "Hornsby, at its peak"?

I am not comparing Blacktown off peak to Hornsby at is peak I am just
pointing out that if Hornsby with four paltforms can handle approximately 30
trains per hour then Blacktown with six platforms should be able to handle
Olympic Park traffic.

> That is an operational thing and is easily sorted with a few extra
> station staff to help check terminating trains, and if they were to
> employ guards with balls (to close the doors and get going, rather
> than waiting for people running down the stairs to try and catch an
> already late train).

I am glad that you concede that trains do get delayed entering Hornsby.  As
you point out train operations are part of the problem but lack of
facilities is (ie platforms) is the major reason.

 > I am not familiar with the layout of Hornsby yard - is it possible to put
> a train in a loop somewhere (thus clearing the platform) and when
> the interurban goes, send the other train out behind it?

It was possible to do as you suggest but the new yard layout makes it more
difficult than before.  In any case it still involves northbound trains
"cutting across" the Up and Down mains to get to a loop.  In any case the
northbound Interurban is often carrying passengers who wish to transfer to
the delayed train.

> But, using your argument, it is not unusual at Blacktown for a train to >
be heldon platform 3 waiting for a late running train from
> the .Richmond line. This then banks up trains on the Up Main behind > it.
So the problem applies at both stations.

It is not just an unusual occurence it is a regular event for trains to
delayed entering Hornsby.

Both Blacktown and Hornsby are important stations.  We will have to a agree
to disagree on the merits of an additional platform at Blacktown versus
spending the money elsewhere in the network.  I thank you for a thought
provocing discussion!  Your points have certainly made me appreciate the
importance of Blacktown more .  However , not withstanding your somewhat
pesuasive arguements I still remain unconvinced why a station such as
Blacktown with a similar number of train services as Hornsby requires 75%
more platforms.  I would have thought there were other cheaper alternatives
that could have improved the efficiency of Blacktown station.