Re: Tram Announcements: another Victorian election conspiracy theory

["WhaleOilBeefHooked" <daproc@sd5.mailbank.com>]

Christopher_Martin GORDON <cmgord@ecr.mu.oz.au> wrote in message
7s9kkn$835$2@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU">news:7s9kkn$835$2@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU...
> : Well, now that there are no conductors on the buses, why don't they have
the
> : same problems with people validating and delaying the bus? Because bus
> : people are better trained - they have their tickets out and ready to
> : validate, the whole process taking up a second or two.
>
> That is because validators or no validators you need a ticket to get onto
> a bus.
>
> : Tram passengers on the other hand, board the tram, fold up their copy of
> : "The Age" (a herculean task in itself), pop it under their arms, take
out
> : their wallet or purse, rifle through it trying to find their ticket, and
> : then eventually take their ticcket out. Since they are civilly
disobedient
> : and rarely validate, they do not know how to insert it into the
validator
> : propely, and get it right on the third try. This is why validation on
trams
> : takes so long.
>
> No one reads the paper anymore.  Up till 2 years ago you didn't need a
ticket
> in your hand to get onto a tram.  Why will the people change now?

For the same reason that they do not have to physically turn a handle and
open the doors outwards like they had to on the swing door trains, or sit in
compartments on suburban trains like on the Tait's. Or for that matter, for
the same reason that England does not transport convicts to the colonies any
more - because things change. You cannot use the argument that "We have
never done it that way before, so why should we do it now?" If that was the
attitude everywhere, then nothing would get done. You would still be writing
on slateboards, rather than using a computer.

> : No, just the obstinacy of Melbourne people who refuse to validate.
>
> It has nothing to do with Melbourne people and Sydney people (stupid
Sydney
> people always trying to make themselves better than Melbourne people, it
> don't work we all the same.)

If we're all the same, then why this obstinacy on the part of Melburnians?

> Sydney has no transport where validation is "optional" like Melbourne
> trams.

It is not optional - the transport operators, as owners of the service, say
it is compulsory. A bit like parking in a 30 minute parking zone for 4
hours - just because they are not booking you for it and you are getting
away with it does not mean it is right.

> : > : The point made 1000 times is that people in Sydney, Brisbane,
Adelaide
> : > : and myriads of other places around the world have no problems with
using
> : > : validators, automatic barriers etc, yet some (possibly large) subset
of
> : > : the people of Melbourne want to distinguish themselves from the rest
of
> : > : the world by claiming it is outrageously difficult or unreasonable.
> : >
> : > People in Sydney/Brisbane/Adelaide don't have problmes validating
because
> : > the driver of the bus makes them (by watching them), same it
Melbourne.
>
> : Okay, so you ARE saying that you won't validate because there is nobody
> : there to make you do it. Nothing to do with the ease or otherwise of
> : validation.
>
> We are talking about everyone in Melbourne here, not just me.  It is just
> human nature.  If you have a optional toll on a road how many people will
> pay it?  You will never get almost everyone unless it is inforced.
> The bus driver inforces people getting on the bus to have a valid ticket
> (usually checked by validation).  Who inforces it on the tram?

So you are agreeing then - it IS civil disobedience.

> : It is absolutely NOTHING to do with the system - your explanations would
> : have some merit in peak hour - but why don't people validate at 9pm on
an
> : almost empty tram? They get on, no congestion, no way that stopping to
> : validate would cause delays. The reason? They don't want to. Can't be
> : bothered. Nothing to do with the system at all.
>
> Did I say it was the systems fault? apart from not having anyone to
inforce
> validation on the trams.

Plenty of people do "it ruins the tickets putting them in all the time", "it
slows down the trams", etc.

> : > : > I suggest if the people in Sydney/Brisbane want to know what it is
> : realy
> : > : > like they should have spent a year or so catching trams with
> : conductors
> : > : > and a year or so with out conductors with automatic ticketing and
see
> : > : > how different the people using the trams behave.
> : >
> : > : Again supporting the interpretation above, i.e. that it is not the
> : > : validation process which is unreasonable but it is just people
making a
> : > : protest?
> : >
> : > It is just the nature of trams, but how would you know there hasn't
been
> : > trams in Sydney for almost 40 years.
>
> : I lived in Melbourne for 19 months, during the conductor period, so I
know
> : what I am talking about - I come down to Melbourne for 3 weeks every
January
> : to umpire at the Australian Open (I know, it is not the 12 months you
said,
> : but it is a start).
>
> : I travel like a regular commuter during those three weeks - 2 trams in
in
> : the morning, tram up to the City for lunch, a tram back, then I might go
out
> : in the evening, and 4 or 5 more tram trips. A minimum of 6, quite often
12
> : tram trips per day, EVERY day for 3 weeks. I think this gives me a
little
> : bit of an idea as to how the system works, and whether it works/
>
> At least you have had a visit to Melbourne and tried it out.  More that
> others from Sydney and Brisbane.

And I do that every year - plus I visit Melbourne quite often DURING the
year. I have pointed this out - I am not a total authority on the workings
of Melbourne transport, but I have quite a lot of experience on it.

> Try it at a different time of year, like when school and university are in
> operation and there is a full load of workes not during their summer
holidays.
> (if they still get any holidays, thanks to jeff)

First week of February is school time, and people are back at work - this is
my third week in Melbourne. Besides, normal loading from Flinders St station
to Melbourne Park gives a pretty good indication of busy loads.

> The type of people using the system are different, people that are used to
> it.  I would say that during the period you spent down here you would have
got
> a good look and use of the system but not the 'normal' people using it
everyday.

True - they were tourists, unfamiliar with the system - if they can make it
work, why can't those who DO know it?

> So know you know the system you only need to know the people using it,
since
> you think Melbourne people are different to Sydney people.

Yes - those who don't know it can make it work, those who *do* know it are
incapable of this. It DOES tell me something about Melburnians.

DaveP