Re: Poultry Railcars (Was: [VIC] K190 to South Gippsland)

[James Brook <ajmbrook@ozemail.com.au>]

Yuri J Sos wrote:

> I hope you're studying Economics at University, Jim.  Your post
> indicates a lack of understanding of the current situation.

No I study computer science but I understand the situation fully. I am not some
typical railfan who doesn't care what happens to our valuable railway heritage.

> 1.   Of course a commercial "for-profit" company is going to look for
> the easiest/cheapest solution to a motive power need -- it would be
> financially irresponsible of them to do otherwise.  Why on earth would
> you enter into an arrangement that's going to cost you more money than
> necessary?

This is the problem with WCR. They don't care about anything except running their
toy train to Warrnambool and back.

> 2.  R766 is currently leased to SRV and will be leased to WCR.  SRV
> has thus far had no security of tenure over the locomotive as the
> owners of R766 could at any time decide to make their loco unavailable
> to SRV for any reason (I'm NOT saying that would ever happen).  The
> owners of R766 obviously feel that this new commercial arrangement
> will benefit them in the long run.  Is there a risk? Of course, there
> is, but risk is part of everyday life, personal and business.

I'm not stupid, ok. I do understand the concept of a lease. I do understand that
Steamrail has no security of tenure over the locomotive and I do understand that
R766 could make the loco unavailable. Personally I think WCR are expanding too
much. They should consolidate what they have and they should be preparing to
purchase new motive power and rolling stock. The S's and B's are not going to last
much longer without needing a major rebuild. Some of the carriages that WCR
currently uses dates back to 1937! In the not too distant future they will have to
replace these as well. Although they may be going along ok at the moment, what
happens when it comes time to do these things? Will WCR have the finances to
purchase new motive power or rolling stock? Even the N cars won't be that cheap
when they are eventually sold. Is it really wise for WCR to sink so much money into
steam, which is nothing more than a fantasy (Although I do like the R711 fantasy!
:-) ).

> 3.  SRV holds title to R700.  A restored R700 gives SRV 2 R classes
> over which they hold title -- a much more secure position for them.

Will it really be restored? I can't wait to see the classleader with a headboard or
a wierd colour scheme.

> 4.  If something goes awry with the financial arrangements along the
> way, SRV still owns R700 in a variable state of restoration, now with
> a tender in great shape (ie R766's tender has been swapped for
> R700's).  When R700 is completed, SRV gets their own working R for
> much much less outlay of time and money than if they had to restore
> R700 (loco and tender) by themselves.  They obviously lack the
> financial and labour ability to restore the R (they're having enough
> difficulty with the A2) or it would have been done by now.

And they won't have use of R766 if something goes wrong during the rebuild of R766.

> >Why couldn't they swap R700 for 707's R753 and convert it?
> >Then 707 would have the class leader and R766 would still be
> >with Steamrail and WCR would have another "super R".
>
> But R766 is NOT an SRV loco.... it's a privately owned loco currently
> leased to SRV.  It would be masochism (and probably financial suicide)
> on the part of WCR to take on a loco and tender that needs a TOTAL
> renovation to become operable within the necessary time-frame, ie by
> April 2000.

Although the loco is not owned by SRV, the owners of it are mostly SRV members, and
SRV is a part of the syndicate. The time frame is WCR's quick fix to the problem
they have got themselves into. If they can't afford to rebuild R700 or R753 then
what makes you think they will be able to restore it. Wouldn't it be cheaper in the
long run to just rebuild one locomotive instead of two? Why do they need another R
class so quickly. Is R711 that unrealiable? Can't they rebuild one of the other two
R's and have it running by the end of 2000?

> >Also what happens if WCR dismantle and start to convert R766 but they run out
> >of money? Also what happens if R700 can't be economically restored like they
> >think it can? In both of these scenarios Steamrail is left without a second R.
>
> And if R766's owners decide to walk, SRV is left without a second R.
> No difference in either scenario as far as SRV is concerned.

Most of R766's owners are Steamrail members and SRV is a part of the syndicate. It
is highly unlikely that the R766 inc will decide to pull the locomotive away from
Steamrail. If they were really like this then they wouldn't have even consulted
steamrail over this whole proposal.

> >If WCR converted an R that hadn't been restored then there would
> >be nothing to lose.
>
> Except for the stakeholders in WCR.  WCR is not a philanthropic
> organisation, even though many of their activities bring great joy to
> railfans.  Their presence in the marketplace will stimulate steam rail
> tourism and charters (as opposed to gunzel tours) which will prime the
> pump to allow a revenue stream to assist in the restoration of a J
> class, D3 or an A2 or two, or even some other class of loco.  No
> matter what their colour or attachments, a working steam loco is
> better than a rusting hulk.

Where do you think they are going to get the money to become the saviours of all
these locomotives? You are living in a dream world. Steam is not commercially
viable unless you do what they did to R711 and even then it still remains to be
seen as to whether it will work in the long run. With WCR, SRHC, SRV and all the
tourist railways running steam, some of these groups are going to fail. If you were
an ordinary family would you bother going on a Steamrail tour if you had just been
down to Warrnambool behind R711? Would you bother going all the way to Maldon just
for a slow trip through the scrub when there is plenty of mainline steam? There is
a limit to how much steam can be economically returned to service because there is
a very limited population in Victoria who actually bother to go on them. If you go
out into the street and ask someone if they had been on a steam train, you would be
lucky if they even said puffing billy!

> >While everything will probably be ok, I still think this proposal is too
> >risky for Steamrail.
>
> Que?  WCR is carrying most of the risk and the owners of R766 a lesser
> risk.  Steamrail gets out of this at minimal risk and maximum
> potential for gain.

If this fails, Steamrail will not have the use of two original R's but if WCR
rebuilds one of the unrestored R's there won't be any risk to steamrail. It is not
minimal risk to Steamrail. WCR have nothing to lose because if it fails, it fails.
They aren't risking one of their own steam locomotives.

> I'm pleased to see such co-operative far-sighted decisions by the
> Board of SRV, the owners of R766 and the owners of WCR: it can only
> lead to a larger number and variety of operating/operable locos in
> Victoria.  If you want "lost in time" historical accuracy, go down to
> the ARHS museum and watch the hulks there slowly rusting away in the
> salt air.

Is it really far sighted on the part of WCR? They are just in it to get another
steam locomotive ASAP. As for Historical accuracy, you  are a typical railfan who
doesn't care what runs, as long as it has big wheels, a boiler and emits smoke. Why
can't Steamrail and SRHC actually restore their locomotives properly.  The most
ironic thing is that the loco without any headboards or nameplates is WCR's Y112.
Why can't operational locos like R761 be as historically accurate as possible? Look
at Dayelsford, their railmotors are operational, but they are trying to restore
them as accuratley as possible. Why can't the steam societies do the same thing?
Also as far as I'm concerned WCR can do what they like with their R classes because
I see no difference between R711 and diesel loco S302. When I talk about historical
accuracy I mean groups like Steamrail and SRHC.

> Lighten up, Jim, your posts lately seem to carry a wistful melancholia
> about them -- nothing seems to be getting done correctly as far as
> you're concerned.

Is anything being done correctly? Every so called "preservation" group is creating
a fantasy version of England, all with strange coloured locomotives, nameplates and
headboards (although the british ones are more tasteful). Instead of doing things
properly and returning locomotives to service as they were in the VR days they are
trying to produce their own fantasy. Is it really that hard to paint a locomotive
properly and don't name it? I think its really pathetic when I have never seen a
typical R class as it was during the VR years. If I have never seen a typical R
class, how can you say things are being done properly? All I have ever seen is a
modern day fantasy made up by people who want to create their own version of what
they think the VR should have been, not what it actually was. On another note don't
call me Jim, I hate that name.

--
- James Brook -

----------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail:
mailto:ajmbrook@ozemail.com.au
Victorian Railfan Web Site:
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ajmbrook/
----------------------------------------------------------------