Re: Yarra Trams Article in Sunday Age

["Rail Roamer" <leadscout@one.net.au>]

Okay really long one here. Trying to answer the bulk of  Vaughan's questions
etc.

Our Authority to request name and address is through 218B of the transport
act of 1983
218B  Sub (4)

A person must not, in response to a request made by an authorised officer or
member of the police force in accordance with this section

(a) refuse or fail to comply with the request; or
(b) state a name and address that is false in a material particular; or
(c) state an address other than the full and correct address of his or her
ordinary place of residence or business

As for your comment re our thinking someone asking for our details or
authority makes them a smartarse
Where did this come from......I did not imply such a thing I merely stated
that if we appraoch someone who is either doing something wrong
or on inspection found to be, that we do not have to put up with smartarses.
Would you?
Maybe this is your perception....if it is well you are welcome to it. But I
suggest you not advise me of what I think without proof.

As for your thinking you can travel without a valid ticket I think you
should note the condtions for you to be able to do such a thing.
section 221(2)
(a) prior to commencing the journey or entering that land or those premises
he takes all reasonalbe steps to purchase a ticket; AND

(b) while making the journey or being on that land or premises he has no
reasonable oppurtunity to purchase a ticket; AND

(c) on completion of the journey or on leaving that land or those premises
he takes all reasonalbe steps to purchase a ticket.

Please note that in (a) & (b)  it says AND at the end not OR.
So in order to get section (b) to be relevant section (a) had to also be
relevant. Not just one of them.
Same goes for (c)

I suggest you check with Department of Infastructure if you have any doubts
ask for the Prosecutions Unit they should be able to advise you
and answer any queries you have.

Section 221 (3)
Subject to sub-section (2), a person who makes a journey in a carrigae, or
is on land or premises for entry to which a ticket is required,
without having in his possession a ticket that is valid for that journey or
entry is guilty of an offence.

Section 221 (4)
A person makes a journey in a carriage, or is on land or premises for entry
to which a ticket is required, and , not being entitled to make that journey
oro entry without a ticket,fails, upon request being made by a member of the
police force or an authorused person, to produce a ticket that is valid for
that journey or entry is guilty of an offence.

Now in regards to concession etc

Section 221 (4A)
A member of the police force or an authorised person may require any person
who makes a journey in a carriage or is on land or premises
for entry to which a ticket is required and who claims or takes benefit of
an exemption or concessional deduction from the payment of a toll,
fare or charge in respect of a journey in a carriage or entry to that land
or premises to produce evidence of that person's entitlement to the
exemption or concession.

Section 221 (5)
A person who by fraudulant or collusive means or false representation--
(a) obtains a ticket; or
(b) claims or takes the benefit of an exemption or concessional deduction to
which he is not entitled from the payment of a toll, fare  or charge in
respect of a journey in a carriage or entry to land or premises--
is guilty of an offence.

As for your query to what our Authority ( or in your words POWER) to be

I'll give you the areas most used by us for our job

SECTION 211 = Definition of an Authorised Officer
SECTION 212 = Power to issue Transport Infringement Notices
SECTION 218B = Power to request Name and Address
SECTION 219AA = Power to detain offenders
SECTION 220 = Power to remove offenders from vehicles / property
SECTION 221 = Power to check tickets

Regulation 104 = Authorised Person because you are employed by a passenger
transport company and have duties in relation to the inspection of tickets.

Like I said if you wish to dipute any of this I suggest you contact your
local member or do as I stated above.
I know my job and what I can and can't do. There is no way I would step over
the boundries because we are becoming a society who
sues the crap out of each other.

You may have seen the bruises but it doesn't mean you know the full story,
hearsay does not count.
You may have witnessed certain events but it does not mean you are aware of
all the facts leading up to those events.
You may see something and only hear all when voices are raised.....but could
you here all before it got to that level?
i.e. Get the fuck away from me cunt's
      You can't do shit...fuck off or I'll smash ya'
and the list goes on.
If someone said this to you ........wouldn't you go on the defensive? We
do....why? Because we have a job to do and we all would like to go home.

As ofr your comments re: those who go for soft targets....yes they exist and
we have our own thoughts on those.
Yes people are entitled to ask what they've done wrong......who said they
couldn't?
Yes they can ask for my details.....who said they couldn't?
Yes fares go up with the Consumer Price Index......but how much can be
softened by how much fare evasion and vandalism occurs.
Alot of school kids are habitual fare evaders, even though they can get
concession. More money for during and after school if they dont get a
ticket.
Yes some inappropiate TIN's get handed out, thats why we all have a thing
called DISCRETION. Just because certain elements don't display it I think
it's a little unfair to judge all by that act. But you are entitled to your
opinion of course and so be it.
If we judged all by certain elements there would be a hell of alot more
tickets getting mailed out etc.
NEWS OFF THE PRESS.......................RPO's will Return to YARRA
TRAMS.......This is what they are going to call new staff they have
advertised for.

Vaughan don't take this personally but I know what I can and can't book
people and for you to say below that the particualr offences are not it is
wrong. If this was the case even more people out there have paid fines for
nothing and the government would have one huge class action looming.

"Vaughan Williams" <ender2000@my-deja.com> wrote in message
95jfi0$oaq$1@nnrp1.deja.com">news:95jfi0$oaq$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> > We do not target young people.
>
> You yourself might not, but RPO's (or whatever name is this week given
> to those odious public relations nightmares we all know as ticket
> inspectors) in general do. I've seen it many times, and had many more
> complaints about it.
>
> > RPO's no longer exist.....they had a name change and many went by the
> > wayside including their methods. They are now called Customer Service
> > Employees.
>
> Yeah yeah, just relabelling something doesn't change what it is.
>
> > We treat all people with respect....but don't think that if we
> > approach you for whatever reason and we get a smartarse non accepting
> > attitude we will smile and say okay forget it. We shall continue to
> > be polite and do what is required of me to fulfill my role on the
> > network.
>
> Being a smartarse isn't an offence. Do you mean if you are asked to
> show your identification and they then make a note of your details that
> they have an attitude problem and are obviously in need of a few
> bruises (it happens - i've seen the bruises)
>
> > When we do checks we are required to stick to ceertain guidelines and
> > if  person is not willing to comply with our lawful requests matters
> tend to get
> > dragged out from a 2 minute chat to possibly a 30 minute chat and in
> > some cases longer if we cannot verify identification of the person.
>
> It might be a worthwhile exercise for you to tell us what you
> understand your powers to be.
>
> > You can't tell me this people had every intention of getting one if
> we were
> > not present?
>
> No, probably not, which is why vandals and fare evaders have to be very
> unlucky to get caught by you.
>
> > Alot of people get on the defensive upon our approaching them because
> > they know they are doing the wrong thing, and thus things can worsen.
> > Yes some officers attitudes can fray at times....doesn't yours?
>
> A lot of people get defensive when you approach them because rightly or
> wrongly (I'd say rightly) your people have an appalling reputation.
>
> > Remember if the option to buy a ticket was present at the commencment
> > of your journey this cancels out the option to buy one during or
> > after your
> > journey. So I DIDN"T HAVE TIME IS NOT A RESONABLE EXSCUSE.
>
> Depends. If theres a long queue and you've allowed a reasonable time to
> buy a ticket (5 minutes, perhaps) then I don't think its reasonable to
> expect you to miss your train. Its the systems fault, not yours, that
> the queues are so long. Its the systems fault, not yours, that the
> machine isn't working (and if it won't sell me the ticket of my choice
> with the payment method of my choice, then as far as i'm concerned it
> isn't working).
>
> > Refuse to give false name and address
>
> Depends. There has to be a lawful request made, which requires a
> reasonable belief theres been an offence. Theyre entitled to ask what
> theyre supposed to have done, and to ask for your name and address too.
> (Your address can be your work address)
>
> > State false name and address
> > Fail to produce evidence of entitlement (Concession)
> > Make journey without valid ticket
>
> No its not. Read the Act.
>
> > As for those who think we are overbearing, aggressive etc...
> > see if you could do our job.
>
> Some are, some aren't.
>
> > It takes all types to make a society, and it has been proven that
> societys
> > attitude and ideals have declined from what they were.
> > I bet some of you would shit yourself if you came up against some of
> the
> > arseholes we do out there.
>
> Yeah i'll concede some of them deserve it. What really annoys me is
> those RPO's that go for the soft targets - the kids travelling alone -
> and ignore the real menaces and obviously habitual fare evaders.
>
> > We are trying to clean the system up for you, if we can cut fare
> evasion
> > maybe there wont be no ticket cost increases. Or it will be only
> minimal.
>
> Fares go up with CPI. Fare evasion is irrelevant to whether they do or
> don't go up.
>
> > If you get caught up in the net, chances are you were doing something
> > wrong, actaully you were and guess what we have laws that we are
> > governed by.
>
> I've seen quite a number of inappropriate TIN's issued. One was when
> Tony Morton, who I know always validates his ticket, had just gotten
> on, sat down, and was dithering with his various bags to get his
> ticket. The filth get on, and he gets fined.
>
> Vaughan
>
>
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