Re: Suggestions for a better Melbourne

["Michael Walker" <walker@hotkey.net.au>]

>*  Electrification and reopening of line to Healesville, with stations at
>Coldstream, Yering, Yarra Glen, Tarrawarra and Healesville.


Would there be any point past Coldstream? What would you achieve besides
running empty trains and putting YVR out of business that the bus can't
already achieve?

You'll be suggesting that PBR should be cut back to Emerald and that the
Belgrave line should be extended to Emerald, there's a few people that could
use a good train service to the city and would prefer not to have to change
from the narrow gauge tilt train suggested last time there was a dreaming
session.

>*  Opening of new stations at Cave Hill (between Mooroolbark and Lilydale)
>and Bedford Park (between Ringwood and Heathmont).


Good idea, although only if traffic increases significantly as a result. You
have to be careful with extra stations that the extra travelling time
doesn't put off more people than the new station attracts.

>*  Opening of a Y-link between Bedford Park and Ringwood East, running
>trains
>from Upper Fern Tree Gully to Lilydale, and calling it the Maroondah line.


Why on earth for? Would anybody actually use such a service to justify the
huge cost involved in construction, extra trains and cost of running the
service. There already are a significant number of north south buses along
many of the major roads east of Ringwood. Whilst it would be more
comfortable to use a train, there are times when buses do the job far more
efficiently for the traffic offering.

>*  Rename Glenferrie to "Glenferrie-Swinburne".


Hasn't this already been more or less done. I am sure that signs advertising
the station as being the stop for Swinburne have been there for quite some
time now.

>*  Extending the Glen Waverley line to Rowville, with stations at Mountview
>(between Swindon Av. and Eastleigh Dr., Glen Waverley), Redcourt (between
>Dobell and Lindsay Cts., Scoresby), Scoresby (as close to Scoresby Village
>as possible), Caribbean Gardens (adjacent to Stud Rd. Entrance, Scoresby)
>and Rowville (as close to Stud Park as possible).


Isn't this a simialr proposal to the Mulgrave extension? Who knows, it may
actually be possible to get out of VFL...oops AFL Park within an hour if
this extension ever gets built. Of course, if the AFL sell AFL Park, the
line would lose some point then.

>*  Extending the Alamein line to connect with the Rowville line between
East
>Malvern and Holmesglen, with services running to Rowville via Glen Iris or
>via Ashburton.


Why stop there, the alignment exists most of the way to Oakleigh along the
old Outer Circle alignment. This would be far more useful, especially if a
tunnel deviation is built to service Melbourne's largest Shopping Centre -
Chadstone which is presently only served by a huge car park and several
ordinary bus services.

>*  All Healesville and Belgrave trains run express Richmond -
>Glenferrie-Swinburne - Camberwell - Box Hill all day until after 8.30 p.m.,
>in which they would stop all stations except East Richmond.


This should have happened years ago with a local service stopping all
stations from Box Hill to the city direct to Flinders Street. Indeed, I
still don't understand why peak hour services go to Blackburn instead of
terminating at Box Hill. It only takes up track space during peak hour for
the sake of travelling two stations. I would have thought it would be more
efficient to run a 3 minute service from Ringwood to Box Hill then express
as now with local trains connecting at Box Hill.

>*  Run an inner city service from the City to Richmond via Ashburton.


Why? It would make more sense to reopen the Outer Circle and run trains to
Oakleigh via the Alamein line as described above.

>NORTH-EASTERN LINES:
>
>*  Reopening and electrification of Epping line to South Morang, with
>stations at Mill Park (between Pindari Av. and Civic Dr.) and South Morang
>(intersection of McDonalds, Gorge and Plenty Rds.).  This would follow the
>original Whittlesea reservation to just past the Yan Yean pipe track, then
>veer right towards South Morang proper.


The line should be extended to Mill Park now, the population certainly
justifies it. It may be too late as many house owners will complain if the
line is built because of concerns over noise and the 'we were here first'
and NIMBY type attitudes. South Morang is probably not necessary yet but
will be soon enough, planning and design should probably start now ready to
put the line in as soon as funding can be gained.

>*  Opening of a Y-Link between Rushall and Westgarth, running trains from
>Reservoir and Heidelberg, and calling it the Merrilands line.


Why? There are numerous bus services that do the job more quickly. Reservoir
to Macleod - 15 minutes, Macleod to Heidelberg - 7 minutes. Or Reservoir to
Bell, 6 minutes, 513 bus to Heidelberg 20 minutes (or 8 if the driver only
has to go to Heidelberg and back to end his shift). I seriously doubt
anybody would use the service in sufficient numbers to justify the cost and
the tight curves and bridge engineering required. The locals may not
appreciate their park and bike path along the river ruined by the
monstrosity such a link would require built.

>*  Running services from the City to Greensborough rather than Eltham.


I am guessing you don't mean eliminating all trains past Greensborough from
your next sentence.

>*  Extending all current Eltham bound trains to Hurstbridge, and having
them
>run express from Jolimont to Victoria Park all day until 8.30 p.m.


May I suggest your proposals would be better served by extending the double
track from Greensborough to Eltham as is suggested every election by the
local member or the opposition member and then shelved immediately after. My
friend at Eltham station did suggest once that serious efforts were being
made to design this but after locals and the National Trust kicked up over
what they perceived would happen to the historic trestle bridge in a
realignment to suit the double track, the PTC walked away.
            In addition, I see no point in extending every train to
Hurstbridge, it would be a timetabling nightmare, would require all day
staffing at Diamond Creek for a 20 minute service to have a hope, every down
train in the morning and every up train in the afternoon and evening would
have their journeys extended by up to six minutes waiting for a cross at
Diamond Creek and the traffic could not possibly hope to justify such an
intensive service. The cows and horses in the paddocks along the west side
of the track are funny to look at but they have trouble with the ticket
machines poor design for hoofed animals since the abolition of staff so they
produce no revenue to fund such a service. The housing along the east side
of the line is not particularly dense and doesn't go far back from the road.
Even the local bus company doesn't run anything along this route other than
school buses and Hurstbridge trains are not renowned for overcrowding.
           If the Eltham line is duplicated, there would be some potential
patronage increase from extending Eltham trains to Diamond Creek and this
would be more feasible as trains could either sit in the loop line whilst
the up and down Hurstbridge crosses it or (more likely because it wouldn't
require extra staffing) the Hurstbridge trains wait at Hurstbridge an extra
20 minutes and Diamond Creek trains go straight in and back.

>*  Construction of a new rail line to East Doncaster.  The line will run
>from Victoria Park via the Eastern Freeway, then underground from just
after
>the footbridge between Kenneth and Carron Sts. to East Doncaster.   There
>would be stations at Yarra Bend (Yarra Bend Rd., Yarra Bend), Riverside
>(adjacent to the Jack O'Toole Res., Kew), Golf Club (adjacent to cnr.
>Meldrum and Minogue Sts., Kew East), Bellevue (Columa St. Footbridge,
>Bellevue), North Balwyn (Koonung Creek Res., North Balwyn), Macedon Square
>(Macedon Sq., Lower Templestowe), Doncaster (Westfield Shoppingtown),
>Jackson Court (Jackson Ct., East Doncaster) and East Doncaster (Tunstall
>Sq., East Doncaster), with possible plans to extend the line underground to
>Box Hill.


Been proposed for a while but it may not happen depending on what
compensation may need to be paid to National Bus. Would so many stations be
needed along the Eastern Freeway? Why would Yarra Bend need a station? I
could only forsee some need for stations at possibly Burke Road to
interchange with the bus, North Balwyn thence Doncaster Shoppingtown.
Possibly also the modal interchange proposed for Doncaster Road and Eastern
Freeway corners depending on the route of the railway. The reason why
Perth's Northern Suburbs line is so successful is because it has few stops
and is subsequently quick. Whilst many stations may seem to be attractive to
local residents because there is always a station nearby, the further out
the railway goes, the less attractive it is because the journey is so much
slower becuase of all the stops. Could you imagine much off peak usage of an
Eastern Freeway line if the train stops every kilometre or so? No, because
the train won't ever reach a high speed because as soon as it speeds up, it
has to stop at the next station. Add to that station dwell times of 20-30
seconds and it soon adds up. On the other hand, if a few strategically
placed stations are there next to major feeders or local connecting buses,
the train travel times are kept down and patronage will be much better.

>*  Complete renaming of Jolimont to "Jolimont M.C.G."


Isn't this the case now?

You have also forgotten express trains on the Epping line, realignment of
the curve around Merri / Rushall, duplicating the Heidleberg tunnel and
Westgarth bridge. Another idea suggested was Eltham to Warrandyte and
eventually Ringwood via Research along the proposed Eastern Ring Road which
won't be built in my lifetime due to the local NIMBYs and the greenie
protesters campaigning against roads to save the local trees.

>NORTH-WESTERN LINES:
>
>*  Electrification of rail line from Broadmeadows and Upfield to
>Craigieburn, with stations at Coolaroo (Kalimna Cres., Coolaroo), Roxburgh
>Park (former site of Somerton station), Patullos (Patullos La.,
Craigieburn)
>and Craigieburn (current station).


Even if Sprinters ran more often during the day or perhaps even a Sprinter
connecting to trains at Broadmeadows. Heck, I'm sure the local residents of
Meadow Heights, Coolaroo, Roxburgh Park and Craigieburn would be happy with
an old DERM to cut their public transport travel time by a quarter. And
given these housing estates run along the rail corridor, I'm surprised an
enterprising developer hasn't already pushed for a decent train service or
even offered to pay for one. I would imagine that most people in these areas
have bought their cars by now rather than use the bus routes which started
life as local feeders to Coolaroo and extended estate by estate from there
to the point where they are now just long local bus routes with nowhere to
go apart from the long distance to Broady.

>*  Open a new station called Campbellfield (Mahoneys Rd.).


Should have been done years ago. Oops, was done years ago but was ripped up.
How sensible not to reinstate it later when the traffic from the local 24
hour Kmart/Coles and the Greensborough-Broadmeadows bus route would justify
it.

>*  Extend the Flemington Racecourse line to connect with western lines just
>before South Kensington, allowing trains to run City - North Melbourne -
>Showgrounds - Racecourse - North Melbourne.  The Showgrounds bypass track
>would be removed and an additional platform would be constructed to allow
>passengers to alight the train from either side.  The same would be done at
>Flemington Racecourse, with the allowance for two trains to sit at the
>station at the one time.  This line would be renamed the Flemington Circle.


Interesting concept but will never happen due to high cost and limited use.
The line is only used to stable trains and provide services for infrequent
special events. Neither use justifies a high cost extension to save a few
minutes and provide a potentially high level of service. The line can't be
too bad, I remember when we used to have Show Day on the first Thursday of
the school holidays and the trains ran every 5 minutes.

>*  Rename Royal Park to "Royal Park - Zoo"


You're into this renaming thing...8^) Perhaps we should rename Regent,
Preston and Bell back to Preston - Regent St, Preston-Murray Rd and
Preston-Bell St. Or maybe just update the current transport map and promote
and sell it at stations, on trams and buses and people can work out for
themselves which station or bus or tram is near where. Does anyone know when
it is due out or are we talking Hillside/Bayside/Swanston/Yarra et al map
Y2K? (As opposed to the last one - Met Map 1995. Gee I remeber when they
were updated nearly every year or so.)

>WESTERN LINES:


<snip lots of electrifying message>

>*  Reopening of stations on the original Werribee line (currently Newport -
>Laverton express) at North Altona (adjacent to North Altona bus station)
and
>Cherry Lake (Greive Pde., Altona).


They closed them for a reason - they were hardly used! Maybe with the North
Altona bus station, there might be a better chance of survival although most
potential users would probably go to either Newport or the city and it would
probably be as quick if not quicker for most people to catch the existing
bus to Newport and 'change to a connecting service' or catch the 232 bus
along the freeway to the city.

>*  Opening of a new station named "Maddox" at Maddox Rd., North
>Williamstown.
>
>*  Opening of a new station named "The Pines" at Altona Rd., Altona
>(adjacent to The Pines scout camp).
>
>*  Opening of a new station named "The Lakes" at Forsyth Rd.,  Western
>Gardens.
>
>*  Opening of a new station named "Werribee Cemetery" at Derrimut Rd.,
>Werribee.
>
>*  Run service from the City to Werribee via Altona or via North Altona.


Whilst I think that more services should run along the express route during
the peak (and I don't mean just the one train and the balancing movements co
unter peak either), would the numbers of potential users justify it. Whilst
Werribee is a large place now, I'm not sure it would support a full time
express service the way Box Hill does. Besides, it would probably still be
quicker for most people out that way outside peak hour to use the Princes
Freeway and Westgate Freeway rather than drive the car to the station, wait
for a train and catch it to the city. With the ring road, I can get from
Greensborough to Werribee in 35 minutes off peak, the train takes longer
than that to get to the city! No express train will attract enough
passengers to justify it's existence out that way. That's why the direct
route died fairly quickly and the line via Westona developed to provide
enough patronage to justify a train service.

>*  Addition of Werribee Racecourse to system maps.
>
>SOUTHERN AND SOUTH-EASTERN LINES:
>
>*  Run services from City to Frankston stopping all stations at all times.

First you push for express trains, now you want the trains on one of
Melbourne's longest lines to stop! I disagree, I would think there is some
justification for middle of the day express trains from Moorabbin to the
city for shoppers and uni students with connecting services from Moorabbin
to the city stopping all stations. It would make Frankston and the beach
more accessible, with an upgraded Stony Point and ferry service - make
Phillip Island more accessible.

>*  Reopen and electrify the line to Mornington with stations at all
original
>sites except for Mornington (former site of R.M.S.P. 16, on the western
side
>of Nepean Hwy.).  Services would run Richmond - South Yarra - Caulfield -
>Bentleigh - Moorabbin - Cheltenham - Mordialloc - Chelsea - Carrum then all
>to Mornington.  Services would run every weekday to Mornington, and to
>Baxter on weekends.  After 8.30 p.m., trains will stop at all stations
>between Caulfield and Carrum.


Whilst it's admirable of you to care about the MPRS, if you are running a
serious service to a part of Melbourne that has been one of the fastest
growing for the last decade or decades, it should also run on weekends.

>*  Electrification of the Stony Point line from Frankston, with a new
>station in Hastings called "Old Tyabb" (adjacent to Old Tyabb township).
>Services would run Richmond - South Yarra - Caulfield - Moorabbin -
>Cheltenham - Chelsea - Carrum - Frankston then all to Stony Point.


I'm not sure electrification would be justified, it would be cheaper and
more practical to get hold of some railcars suitable for running
semi-suburban services (eg Comeng's 3000 series Adelaide railcars or some
old Redhens for heritage running on weekends...) and use these to run to
Mornington and Stony Point.

>*  Resuming of electric services to Warragul with all Pakenham services
>extended to Warragul.  Services would run Richmond - South Yarra -
>Caulfield - Oakleigh - Clayton - Springvale then all to Warragul.  After
>8.30 p.m., trains will stop at all stations.


I agree more with the concept of interurban electric trains mentioned in
another thread. An hourly service should suffice although it might be
pointed out the recent trial bus service between Koo Wee Rup and Pakenham
folded due to lack of interest.

>*  Opening of a new station named "Lynbrook" adjacent to the Lynbrook
>Estate, Lynbrook.
>
>*  Increased services to Cranbourne.


This is happening now.

>GEELONG & SURROUNDING SUBURBS:
>
>*  Introduction of a suburban rail system for Geelong and suburbs, named
>"Geelong City Railways (GCR)".

<snip extensive rail system for Geelong>

Whilst imaginative and innovative, with the highest possible respect, it
will never happen. Geelong isn't big enough to support such an extensive,
expensive and dare I say it unnecessary system. If electrification ever came
to Geelong, it would make sense to possibly run some local services. But I
would imagine the frequency of Geelong - Melbourne trains would make it
unnecessary for the potential passenger offering to run additional local
trains. Even now I doubt it would be needed. The only improvement I can see
being of use is extending the trains south as someone else said to Grovedale
or the end of the suburban Geelong area or maybe Drysdale as you suggest and
running all trains there. This would need to be coupled with allowing the
time based bus tickets to be used on equivalent train services eg trains to
Lara and Grovedale/Drysdale. Otherwise no-one would use them. As a matter of
interest, does anyone know if the time based tickets can be used on the
trains now and if so, how far? It would make sense as Vline (or DOI now I
guess) I think contract out the Geelong services now and collect the
revenue, same as Met (now DOI) in Melbourne do with private bus operators.

If such a proposal were to go ahead, I doubt short lines to numerous
destinations are the best, you might be better off planning loop line (s) to
the west so that services run in a teardrop shape from Grovedale/Drysdale
via Geelong and western suburbs then Geelong then Grovedale/Drysdale. Or
just a loop service with Melbourne services going further south.

Whilst dreaming of what could be is good, it needs to be recognised that
that's all it is. Perhaps you could readjust some of your proposals keeping
in mind that people will usually drive to their local station or in fewer
cases use a short trip on a feeder bus and then expect a quick train journey
to wherever they are going (major attraction eg city, shopping centre,
entertainment precinct, etc). Lots of stations are not necessarily better.

Also, keep in mind, politicians and transport planners prefer ideas that
have as little outlay as possible and as little political fall out as
possible with maximum political coverage. Existing train line improvements
eg new well placed stations, extra services, etc achieve this best, inner
city land resumptions are the least popular.

It seems to me Melburnians are unique in this news group for wanting to
redesign their transport system, I don't recall any posters from other
states wanting to redesign theirs except for a line here or a line there. Is
that because your rail systems are perfect as they are? Or are Melburnians
just frustrated transport planners? Does anyone from another state want to
say what they think should be done to improve their system as a whole? South
Australians not included, we all know there's no point even dreaming...8^)