Re: terrier locomotives

["Robert Lee" <robsl@ozemail.com.au>]

Craig,

I'm all for more discussion of early railways, so I'll start the ball
rolling with some thought on that topic of perennial interest (for some of
us anyway), early NSW loco liveries.  I'm mystified as to (1) when the
mid-green livery finished, and (2) what were its variants.  I'd always
assumed that the mid-green ended around 1882, and that maybe all the
versions of the D class had always been black (making Phil Belbin's painting
of a green D leading a black P a delightful fantasy!).  However, maybe it
was just that the lining changed, and the black lining picked out in white
was simplified to plain white (or maybe yellow) thin lining on a darker
green.

If that is so, that explains all those well presented passenger locos of the
1880s that look so spic and span in the photos but clearly don't have the
black and white lining.  I'd always assumed they were black.  Love to know
your thoughts on this.

So far as the longevity of the green lined in black and white livery is
concerned, I've looked through Alex Grunbach's Compendium and come up with
the following pieces of evidence:

1.  On p. 34 is an 1891 photo of 20N at the time of its sale to J&A Brown.
It is obviously in the 1870s green lined with black and white livery, very
freshly applied.  This suggests two possibilities.  Either, this livery
survived on the GNR longer than it did on the GSWR, or it was applied for or
by  the Browns for their own fleet.  There is, I guess, a third possibility,
both of the above.  If it was Brown's livery, that suggest all sorts of
tantalising-looking locos, notably the ex Mersey tank as rebuilt by BP
without the condensing equpment but with the classic BP tank loco cab, in
the 1870s livery - scumptious!!!  (what a treasure that loco is, by the
way!!!!)

2.  Back to our Terriers.....  on p. 40 is a photo of 71 at South Grafton
precisely dated to November 1913.  The loco is not in good condition, and is
even running as an 0-4-2T!  But, on close inspection, it is in the 1870s
green lined in black and white livery!!!  The dark lining on a paler ground
colour is unmistakable, if faded.  Now this is the latest date I've ever
thought of for this livery still to exist.  Incidentally, there are some
inconsistencies between the account of the life of this loco and the photo
on the same page.  The loco may have been in PWD ownership at the time (the
PWD had control of contruction from 1888 to 1917).  Maybe the PWD railway
construction branch, under Whitton from 1888 to 18990 and Deane thereafter,
reverted to the 1870s livery.  It's the kind of thing Whitton would do - he
could be VERY willful!!

Anyway, any thoughts on how a 67 class comes to be at Grafton in 1913 still
in the 1870s livery????  Anyone????

3.  Look at the sandbox on 504 (a P class) on p. 115.  The lining appears to
be 1870s style, but I'd always thought that the P's were introduced in black
and stayed that way until the 1930s.  Do you think it's possible that the
old livery was ever applied to any of the Ps?

Another point on liveries of this period.  All the Baldwin locos (L, J, O
classes) seems to have been delivered in black with a lighter, presumably
green boiler.  I don't know how long they stayed that way.  That would give
them a livery simliar to that on that of the State Railway of Thailand's
steam locos, black smokebox, cab and tender with green boiler....very good
it looks too.  Must have looked great on the NSW Baldwins of the 1880s and
1890s.

Finally, I know that the RTM is shamefully underfunded (in fact virtually
unfunded) by our parsimonious governments, and is very dependent on
volunteers, but it strikes me as very sad that some of the most
extraordinary survivals of the 1860s and 1870s are so neglected.  I have in
mind 20N, the Mountain Radial car (virtually identical with a series built
for the Metropolitan Railway - what would the Covent Garden Museum give for
this- we leave it to deteriorate in the weather....), the Mersey tank (how
many outside-framed standard-gauge 0-6-4Ts are there in the world????), and
there's more.  What to do about these??...they sure need some love and they
are very important.  On a related matter, something needs to be done aout
the very inauthentic livery on No. 18 (applied at Chullora, so no blame to
the RTM for that horror!), and I'm disappointed that, in the restoration of
No 78, the opportunity was not taken to apply the authentic1870s black and
white lining.  I think, though, that Jim Martin got the green just about
right on No 78, and it certainly looks VERY good.

Well, this has been a bit of a rave, but I'd love to hear opinions (and,
even better, facts) about this period.  And maybe someone has ideas about
what to do about the rotting 19th century treasures at Thirlmere, which are,
in my opinion at least, the most valuable parts of the collection.  (There
are lots of 2-cylinder 4-6-0s in then world, and even a sprinkling of
3-cylinder 4-8-2s, and, let's face it, an airfare to look at these is a good
deal cheaper than an RTM tour these days.)

I'm cross-posting to aus-rail to see if this raises any interest there.

Robert

>Robert,
>Another possibility for an introduction to proper railway is the Lloyds 285
>class. Granted it is a kit, but it is HO scale and should not be too hard
for a
>first attempt at 19th century modelling.
>I suspect that the application of Middle Green Livery was for a bit longer
than
>sometimes thought. The 205 class were introduced in Green and I think even
the
>373 class were introduced in Green. Gifford Eardley, in an ARHS Bulletin
article
>about Sydney in the early 1900's mentions that some A's were still green,
with
>polished brass at this time, although where he derived this info from I am
not
>sure.
>More discussion on early railways please!
>I agree that the Terrier would be a good "near enough" intro to early
NSWR..
>
>regards,
>
>Craig
>