Re: Major error in AMRM NSW passenger carriage colour articles.

[steamhead@webtel.net.au]

On Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:01:01 +1100, Lambing Flat
<LambingFlat@my-dejanews.com> wrote:

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>steamhead@webtel.net.au wrote:
>
>OH MY GOD!, HE'S BACKKKKKKK.......................
>
>> errors in the John Beckhaus articles should also be highlighted so my fellow
>> modellers do not incorrectly paint their models.
>
>> The other major error is in the 1954 lining. The top buff line above the windows is
>> thinner
>> than the lining below the windows, not the same as described in the
>> article.(It was only the same thickness on electric suburbans)
>
>This is true, the line above the window was thinner than the line below the window on
>the timber cars for the post '54 overall red scheme, as can be seen on any photo.  On
>the steel cars, (FS/BS, N cars and a/c cars), the upper and lower bands were to the
>width of the raised flat beading.
>
>> The next error is  on the caption  of the reverse yellow color scheme
>> DEB set. Firstly the colour is not buff but yellow (buff  is  one
>> colour description used for the earlier schemes) Secondly  in my
>> opinion,  the picture shows the least attractive paint scheme carried
>> used by the PTC (purely my subjective view).
>
>Modern stuff.  Pahhhh!
>
>> With all these errors one must question the undercoat scheme, 1971. If
>> these carriages were out shoped in undercoat, for emergency purposes,
>> why are they complete with sign writing. More probably an expermential
>> colour scheme short lived or  simply faded venition red , unlined.
>
>Sorry Terry, you are completely wrong on this one, there are many references in many
>separate publications to cars being released in undercoat at this time due to traffic
>demands.  Why were they complete with signwriting?  Easy, doing the final coats of
>colour and allowing them to dry took a few days, the cars were needed now, whereas
>sticking on a couple of transfers took a few minutes, as the staff still needed to
>identify the cars and the passengers still needed to know which car they were
>entering.

Amazing, something correct in these articles.

>> John's table 3 in the December issue indicates that Indian red was in use in 1939.
>> His article does not include this colour scheme. I presume this is the red applied
>> to some, not many carriages,
>
>You may be referring to the all over, fully lined,  red scheme that was applied to
>some of the older Pullman and Sleeping cars, instead of Fully lined Russet and Red in
>the inter war period, see http://www.cia.com.au/bullack/prewarred.html for my thoughts
>on this scheme.

It is possible, but hard to verify.

>> possibly lined in a similar maner to the current 3801 carriages. Various B&W
>> photographs show such a scheme, though they could be the earlier
>> venition red and resset scheme.
>
>Unless they are Pullman or early Sleeping cars then they are Fully lined Russet and
>Red, see http://www.cia.com.au/bullack/EAM.html, second illustration.
>
>> Another likely  1939 use of Indian red may have been  for Buildings, not rolling
>> stock.
>
>Now that's a new one!  What evidence do you base this assertion on?

It is a common colour used on buildings generally. From memory it was
applied to Town Hall Station in the 1970's. Belmore Station today has
it, some one thought is was a possible colour suitable for a historic
type colour scheme.  Just an alternative possibility.

>A further comment of my own regarding Allan Brown's recommended colours for painting
>models.
>
>L&C Russet, tsk tsk and O Dear!

L&C anything, colours are not even close.

>L&C russet bears only a passing resemblance to real russet.  How do I know, you ask?
>Apart from looking at it, I know what it was matched to.  About 10-12 years ago there
>was a restaurant consisting of a couple of  N cars siting in the old Regent St
>Mortuary siding, which were painted in a version of Tuscan and Russet, the russet of
>which was a particularly bilious shade of green, which the L&C colour matches exactly!

The Red was also strange on these carriages .

>Please, if you want to paint carriages in a version of Tuscan and Russet that even
>remotely approaches reality, don't use L&C colours or any of the commercially
>available reds.  (Can't comment on AR russet, as I didn't know that Rod actually made
>russet).  Unless you have some old and preciously hoarded stocks of Craftsman Russet,
>(about the closest match to date) then mixing your own is currently the only answer.
>As for Tuscan, this was not the same shade as the post '54 red, so it will have to be
>mixed also.

Hard to say. The difference was minimal as far as paint samples show.
The main diference in colour is due to weathering. It appears from
some photo's, that some carriages in the earlier scheme are darker
than the later scheme, and vice a versa. It is likely a minority of
carriages, from time to time, were painted in a non standard red
colour, this is evident in both the russet and BSvenition red scheme
(NSW Tuscan) and the all over 1954 BSvenition red scheme (NSW Light
Indian Red).

>For Tuscan I use a special mix of  Gunze Sangyo Aqueous Hobby Colour, No H7 Brown, let
>down with a little yellow and white, but while I have used Craftsman russet in the
>past, for my next carriage I am going to experiment with a russet that the Great Sage
>of Lindfield had specially mixed.
>
>As the Great Sage has samples of both Tuscan and Russet, suggesting to Ian Storrie
>that he adds these colours to his paint range may be a direction worth pursuing.
>
>I'll be putting some comments about model colours on my "Dogbox" page when its
>finished.

If you do not give paint standard references, a few years down the
track the paint descriptions will be useless, due to paint formula
changes.

Of course, what you are putting on your web page is the style of
painting article that should be published in AMRM. Not the incorrect
one full of information useless for the modeller. 

For modellers who want to know what some British standard colours look
like, simply go around to a couple of house paint retailers, and
collect the booklets on traditional house colours, some quote the
standard number.

Then you have a colour to mix your model paint to. 
Another alternative is to match your paint to the Austrains 81, which
was matched to British standard Venition Red. (It should be British
standard Indian Red if new out of paintshops)

>(Sinking back into a morass of Dogbox drawings....................)

Keep up the good work.

>DPC James McInerney
>
>STOP!  In The Name Of The Lore!
>
>At http://www.cia.com.au/bullack/index.html , the "Lambing Flat" page.
>
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>&nbsp;
><p>steamhead@webtel.net.au wrote:
><p>OH MY GOD!, HE'S BACKKKKKKK.......................
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>errors in the John Beckhaus articles should also
>be highlighted so my fellow
><br>modellers do not incorrectly paint their models.</blockquote>
>
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>The other major error is in the 1954 lining. The
>top buff line above the windows is thinner
><br>than the lining below the windows, not the same as described in the
><br>article.(It was only the same thickness on electric suburbans)</blockquote>
>This is true, the line above the window <i>was </i>thinner than the line
>below the window on the timber cars for the post '54 overall red scheme,
>as can be seen on any photo.&nbsp; On the steel cars, (FS/BS, N cars and
>a/c cars), the upper and lower bands were to the width of the raised flat
>beading.
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>The next error is&nbsp; on the caption&nbsp; of the
>reverse yellow color scheme
><br>DEB set. Firstly the colour is not buff but yellow (buff&nbsp; is&nbsp;
>one
><br>colour description used for the earlier schemes) Secondly&nbsp; in
>my
><br>opinion,&nbsp; the picture shows the least attractive paint scheme
>carried
><br>used by the PTC (purely my subjective view).</blockquote>
>Modern stuff.&nbsp; Pahhhh!
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>With all these errors one must question the undercoat
>scheme, 1971. If
><br>these carriages were out shoped in undercoat, for emergency purposes,
><br>why are they complete with sign writing. More probably an expermential
><br>colour scheme short lived or&nbsp; simply faded venition red , unlined.</blockquote>
>Sorry Terry, you are completely wrong on this one, there are many references
>in many separate publications to cars being released in undercoat at this
>time due to traffic demands.&nbsp; Why were they complete with signwriting?&nbsp;
>Easy, doing the final coats of colour and allowing them to dry took a few
>days, the cars were needed <i>now</i>, whereas sticking on a couple of
>transfers took a few minutes, as the staff still needed to identify the
>cars and the passengers still needed to know which car they were entering.
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>John's table 3 in the December issue indicates that
>Indian red was in use in 1939. His article does not include this colour
>scheme. I presume this is the red applied to some, not many carriages,</blockquote>
>You may be referring to the all over, fully lined,&nbsp; red scheme that
>was applied to some of the older Pullman and Sleeping cars, instead of
>Fully lined Russet and Red in the inter war period, see <A HREF="http://www.cia.com.au/bullack/prewarred.html">http://www.cia.com.au/bullack/prewarred.html</A>
>for my thoughts on this scheme.
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>possibly lined in a similar maner to the current
>3801 carriages. Various B&amp;W
><br>photographs show such a scheme, though they could be the earlier
><br>venition red and resset scheme.</blockquote>
>Unless they are Pullman or early Sleeping cars then they are Fully lined
>Russet and Red, see <A HREF="http://www.cia.com.au/bullack/EAM.html">http://www.cia.com.au/bullack/EAM.html</A>, second illustration.
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>Another likely&nbsp; 1939 use of Indian red may have
>been&nbsp; for Buildings, not rolling stock.</blockquote>
>Now that's a new one!&nbsp; What evidence do you base this assertion on?
><p>A further comment of my own regarding Allan Brown's recommended colours
>for painting models.
><p>L&amp;C Russet, tsk tsk and O Dear!
><p>L&amp;C russet bears only a passing resemblance to real russet.&nbsp;
>How do I know, you ask?&nbsp; Apart from looking at it, I know what it
>was matched to.&nbsp; About 10-12 years ago there was a restaurant consisting
>of a couple of&nbsp; N cars siting in the old Regent St Mortuary siding,
>which were painted in a version of Tuscan and Russet, the russet of which
>was a particularly bilious shade of green, which the L&amp;C colour matches
>exactly!
><p>Please, if you want to paint carriages in a version of Tuscan and Russet
>that even remotely approaches reality, don't use L&amp;C colours or <i>any</i>
>of the commercially available reds.&nbsp; (Can't comment on AR russet,
>as I didn't know that Rod actually made russet).&nbsp; Unless you have
>some old and preciously hoarded stocks of Craftsman Russet, (about the
>closest match to date) then mixing your own is currently the only answer.&nbsp;
>As for Tuscan, this was not the same shade as the post '54 red, so it will
>have to be mixed also.
><p>For Tuscan I use a special mix of&nbsp; Gunze Sangyo Aqueous Hobby Colour,
>No H7 Brown, let down with a little yellow and white, but while I have
>used Craftsman russet in the past, for my next carriage I am going to experiment
>with a russet that the Great Sage of Lindfield had specially mixed.
><p>As the Great Sage has samples of both Tuscan and Russet, suggesting
>to Ian Storrie that he adds these colours to his paint range may be a direction
>worth pursuing.
><p>I'll be putting some comments about model colours on my "Dogbox" page
>when its finished.
><p>(Sinking back into a morass of Dogbox drawings....................)
><p>DPC James McInerney
><p>STOP!&nbsp; In The Name Of The Lore!
><p>At <A HREF="http://www.cia.com.au/bullack/index.html">http://www.cia.com.au/bullack/index.html</A> , the "Lambing Flat" page.
><br>&nbsp;</html>
>
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Terry Flynn

For up to date HO scale model railway standards go to
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/trainstandards/index.html
Includes extra finescale standards improved P87 and correct wagon weight formulae.